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Tactical Shield Manipulation

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Kwint Sommer	Posted - 2007.06.27 07:36:00 - [1] I will be training this skill to L5 rather soon and would like a dev comment on just how it works (aka. is training this skill bad for passive tankers?) and whether L5 is broken.
Kwint Sommer	Posted - 2007.06.29 00:44:00 - [2] Originally by: Ryf I finally got off my arse and petitioned the Devs (see post 63). I'll keep you informed.......... Great, what's the turn around on a petition like this?
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.07.05 15:44:00 - [3] Originally by: IamBen Make the skill useful. Forget about useful, just make it not screw passive shield tankers... I can't believe this thread has been around for months and still hasn't gotten a single word from a dev.
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.07.05 17:32:00 - [4] Originally by: Bleys Vontagen As long as you limit your thinking to "in the box" thinking. Well, I don't do that. Sometimes that costs me. Sometimes I look foolish. But sometimes I run into things, quite by accident, that is ignored by the "conventional" wisdom of in-the-box thinking. It's a great skill when you DON'T USE ACTIVE HARDNERS. Train it up to Level 5 and fill out those Iteron V slots with T2 Shield Resistance Amplifiers. A SINGLE T2 SRA (EM) will boost you from ZERO to 47% (.375 1.25). Barely worse than a T1 shield. And, you don't need cap so you can use what little cap your industrial has to repair shields when you make that mad dash back to the gate. And, better yet, you don't need to hope you turned them on before the Jita Lag gets you. So, yeah, the skill doesn't help the active resistance tankers. It's not really supposed to, hence it only working on inactive hardeners (including cap-drained/off active hardeners). What the f** are you talking about? Honestly you're either posting in the wrong thread or outside of more than the proverbial box. This thread is about the skill Tactical Shield Manipulation which "Reduces the chance of damage penetrating the shield when it falls below 25% by 5% per skill level, with 0% chance at level 5." So with this skill trained your shields will drop faster -starting at 25%- than they would without it but your armor will take less damage. If you rely on passive regeneration of your shields (regardless of cap and type of hardener...) then having them drop quicker -starting at 25%- means that your recharge rate drops faster and a nasty, self-reinforcing cycle builds where lower HP means lower recharge rate which means more damage per second getting through which means even lower HP... That cycle happens regardless of this skill but this skill makes it even worse. Even for an armor tanker this skill is not desirable as it lowers their shield regen rate -below 25% HP- and shields are just a free addition to their tank. The only place it is nice is for Shield tanking PVE using active shield boosters and even in this case it's only useful in that it prevents them from having to repair their armor. The skill being broken refers to reports that at L5 it acts as though you've never trained the skill at all. Of course, it is not 100% clear that this skill works as I described and it seems very odd that CCP would force virtually all shield tankers to train L4 and all shield tanking capital pilots L5 of a skill that is close to useless and liable to damages your tank. That's why we want a dev response to this.
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.07.10 16:08:00 - [5] Originally by: Endorphin Lai I don't see this skill as being all that useless, seems to me to be the equivalent of gaining more armor hitpoints, or reducing the rate at which hitpoints are diminished... It may well be "more armor hitpoints" in the short term as the shields drop lower before the armor starts taking damage but it ultimately means that your shields will recharge much slower and thus you will have a worse tank regardless of whether you rely on armor or shields. This skill screws anyone who relies on passive shield regeneration, slightly hurts everyone else. The only situation in which it is nice to have -still not good, it is never good, just convenient- is if you're running missions with an active shield tank and initially loss almost all of your shields only to quickly cut the damage per second coming at you, this skill still hurts your tank a little but with it you won't take armor damage which you would have to waste time fitting modules to fix. If I had the choice I would never have trained a single level of this skill yet I'm forced to take it to L5 to fly a shield tanking carrier. Quote: reducing the rate at which hitpoints are diminished... What
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.07.11 16:23:00 - [6] Originally by: Gaius BaItar HereÆs what I think: Above 25% (level 0): only the shield takes damage, according to its resists. Below 25% (level 0): both shield and armor take damage, considering its own resists. The amount of damage taken by armor is not subtracted from the shield damage, but is the original damage, after resists have been applied. It could work that way or it could be that the damage is split by some random fraction (probably on a shot by shot bases, aka. "that missile hits the shields, this missile hits the armor...") between them and thus the more armor damage the less shield damage and the less shield damage (below 30% or so) the faster the shields recharge. The fact that it could be either is why we have been requesting a dev response for months.... What makes you think that it does damage to both without decreasing the damage done to the shields? That would mean that you are (at least before resists) suffering more total damage than your opponent is producing, that seems a tad ludicrous to me. For example, you are suggesting that one missile doing 100 damage base will do that damage to both your shields and armor for a total of 200 damage before resists???? If that really is the way it works then this skill seems like a must, if not it actually hurts you....DEV RESPONSE PLEASE!!!!!!!!
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.07.16 20:11:00 - [7] Originally by: Naomi Wildfire they dont recognise it until it reaches 20 Pages ;) I wish it weren't true....
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.07.17 15:08:00 - [8] Originally by: Tabore I agree. As it is now, the only real reason to train TSM is for invuln field II. Unfortunately Capital Shield Boosters require TSM L5 which is both a nasty time sink -that armor tankers don't have- and the skill may very well hurt your tank.
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.07.20 13:43:00 - [9] This is getting pretty ridiculous, this thread has spent the better part of the last two months on the front page and a petition has been filed and still no answer. I'm tempted to say that our only remaining course of action is to crank up the page count to 20 or so.... I guess I'll give the second petition another week before promoting what amounts to spamming this thread.
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.07.23 18:14:00 - [10] Originally by: TimMc Ideas for possible bonuses from Tactical Shield Manipulation: 1. 4% Bonus to EM resistence per level. 2. While Shield HP below 30%, all shield resistances are increased by 4...20% 3. 10% Reduction in Signature Radius penalty from Shield Modules. 2 and 3 look like good possibilities but a 4% boost to EM Resistance would be a really big improvement and I think armor tankers wouldn't stop b****ing until it got nerfed. Perhaps 3% per level to EM would be better or maybe 2% per level to all resists.

Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.07.25 00:36:00 - [11] Originally by: Kadreal Edited by: Kadreal on 24/07/2007 19:43:30 I just thought I'd point out that in most situations, this skill actually makes your tank weaker! The reason being your shield recharges a lot faster at 25% then at 0%, but this skill forces all damage onto the shields, making them fail and eliminating their recharge. Let's take an example of two shields tanks. One where no damage can penetrate the shields, and one where the shields will only absorb damage down to 25%, letting everything else through. The first guy will have his shield hold damage from the armor longer, but once it breaks, that armor is going to get shredded with ~100% of the incoming DPS, meanwhile the second guy's armor will be taking DPS - (regen on shield @ 25%) which in most cases will last noticeably longer. Obviously the second guy will die faster if your taking an insane amount of DPS as it has less "over all" HP but in that case you'd probably die in either setup. This would also be great for armor tankers, as even with the small amount of regen a non-shield tanks ship receives, the armor will still only take DPS - (shield regen @ 25%) which would last longer, possibly long enough to eek out that kill before he gets you. I haven't confirmed this yet -mostly because I haven't trained L5 yet which is reportedly broken anyways- but by rough estimation the difference between the regen rate at 0% and 25% is nearly an order of magnitude.
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.07.25 18:45:00 - [12] My signature now links to this thread as well. At the very least we'll be getting more bumps.... ---------------------------------------- This Thread needs some Dev lovin but it will take a bump from anyone
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.07.26 07:29:00 - [13] Originally by: Rystin Timbal lol, you can't actually expect a dev reply here... It would benifit Caldari! Argue the point so that it benifits Gallente and we'll get 6 BoB players and the Devs on here in seconds. No real offense intended, it just seems lately that Caldari are the nerf-bat punch bag. The skill is broken at level 5, and takes a disproportionate amount of time to train just to use tech II hardners, which only give you a 5% bonus in themselves. But anyway, the title "Tactical Shield Manipulation" does imply it means you adjust your resistances or something more than just making sure the shield does what it's supposed to anyway... Certainly level 5 needs to be fixed, and possibly the skill needs to be adjusted to help the shield tankers a little more, or just to make it more worthwhile to train. To be frank, a well known broken skill isn't expected from a game we pay to play. I'll restrain myself from tinfoil hattery becaues I want the devs to seriously consider the issues raised in this thread....That said, they really are taking their time. It being broken at L5 isn't the biggest concern, it is the idea that it's screwing PvP shield tankers and frankly anyone in a situation in which their shields drop below 30% regardless of tank or intentions. That extra 5% on T2 active hardeners is well worth the few days L4 takes. Requiring L5 for capital shield tankers when their is no similar time sink for capital armor tanks is BS. I wouldn't be that bothered if the skill were helpful but it seems to be both broken at L5 which may be good if it's screwing people as I personally think it is.... This really isn't about boosting shield tanks, it's about a broken/harmful/unfair to require at L5 skill that we would like to hear from Devs about. ---------------------------------------- This Thread needs some Dev lovin but it will take a bump from anyone
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.07.27 16:44:00 - [14] Welcome to Page 6 of the thread that will never be answered.... What ever happened to that second petition? ---------------------------------------- This Thread needs some Dev lovin but it will take a bump from anyone
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.07.27 22:41:00 - [15] Originally by: Ilvania how about CCP puts this in the game makes about as much sense to me Tactical Capacitor Management; skill at preventing the capacitor from recharing, including the use of capacitor chargers and other advanced capacitor modules. Reduces the output of the capacitor when it falls below 25% by 5% per skill level, with 0% chance at level 5. required skill for all Amarr Capital ships. Sounds about right to me, except they would need an equivalent time sink/harmful skill for armor tankers. It should also be broken at L5 that way once you have it that high you'll just have wasted a million SP but won't suffer from poor regeneration.... ---------------------------------------- This Thread needs some Dev lovin but it will take a bump from anyone
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:43:00 - [16] Edited by: Kwint Sommer on 30/07/2007 21:43:38 Originally by: dodgy242 Originally by: RedLion I'm training this to lvl 4 :S Sad thing is that the "bonus" from this skill really isn't any "bonus" and this bugs me... Good to know it's bugged on lvl 5 so I can get it to lvl 5 and stat getting damage through my shield on lower shield levels again. The problem is that I and others NEED it at 5 to use a module on a carrier. I'm one of those people, I've got about a month to work on some other carrier skills but taking this to L5 is absolutely mandatory if you plan on getting your Carrier shot. ---------------------------------------- This Thread needs some Dev lovin but it will take a bump from anyone
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.08.01 21:39:00 - [17] Originally by: Haradgrim Yay, one more completely legitimate bug that CCP has never and will never comment on! If there are two things that I hate in this game it's: 1) stopgap skills that have no benefit and only serve as a bottle neck for more advanced skills(and thankfully there are very few). 2) CCP's complete lack of comment on issues that have a significant effect on a large portion of the player base (i.e. like the one in the OP or the realtek sound crashing issue (which they have commented on but not in a direct fashion)) Every single skill level should have a positive effect on one's character, imho. C'mon CCP, give us an answer, you know you want to! I generally agree with you. 1) Advanced Spaceship Command is bull****, I don't care if CCP want to throw some ISK sinks in before you can pilot a capital ship but this is a complete waste of a month. At the very least they could make the agility bonus apply to all ships not just capitals but that is a whine for another time... 2) I've seen them at least give vague lip service to the Realtek audio bug (they usually refuse to say Realtek) over the last year but such comments are few and far between. Much like their initial silence on desynch issues. I understand and agree that they have better things to do than read every whine on the forums but this thread has been here for 2 months, is one of the longest on this subsection of the forum and brings up serious concerns and bugs with a high rank skill that has to be trained to L5 for capital shield tanking. The lack of a dev so much as saying "I noticed this thread and will look into it" is infuriating.... ---------------------------------------- This Thread needs some Dev lovin but it will take a bump from anyone
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.08.03 01:48:00 - [18] Apparently there's a Drone Thread that is now at 17 pages without dev input. We're only at 7 pages and dealing with a much smaller problem. That's really depressing.... ---------------------------------------- This Thread needs some Dev lovin but it will take a bump from anyone
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.08.03 23:01:00 - [19] Making Tactical Shield Manipulation give even a 2% per level decrease in CPU usage for modules that require the skill would be far better than what it currently does. I would say it should be a 5% per level improvement since it only affects hardeners and boosters but I'll take what I can get. ---------------------------------------- This Thread needs some Dev lovin but it will take a bump from anyone
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.08.05 03:24:00 - [20] Originally by: dodgy242 Originally by: Gone'Postal Edited by: Gone''Postal on 03/08/2007 10:16:29 Originally by: Drykor customer service my ***. Could not have said it better myself... If I was going to the fanfest I'd take a megaphone, shove it into a devs ear and scream the name of this skill until we got an answer about there inability to fix this. \0/ New Forum Sig \0/ If you do that and film it, I'll give you a carrier of your choice. I'll throw in a Capital Shield Booster, you know the one we have to train this skill to L5 to use. ---------------------------------------- This Thread needs some Dev lovin but it will take a bump from anyone

Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.08.08 16:12:00 - [21] Originally by: SexxxSlave Originally by: Cookie Snatcher 5% less cpu usage on all shield related modules you mean to say that your shield modules are giving you THAT hard of a time on CPU?? Trying putting a solid capital shield tank on a Chimera plus a Smart Bomb or two, a Capital Shield Transfer and a DCU or two. You'll find it requires either a completely faction fit or a co-processor. ---------------------------------------- This Thread needs some Dev lovin but it will take a bump from anyone
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.08.08 19:44:00 - [22] Edited by: Kwint Sommer on 08/08/2007 19:45:04 There's a Dev response in the game development channel saying that it has been fixed at L5 on the test server and this fix will be going live soon. For those of you who think this skill is screwing shield tankers (aka. no damage leak means lower HP means lower regen means die sooner) or just want to see a different bonus or think that capital shield tankers shouldn't have a time sink capital armor tankers don't please post in that thread while the Devs are reading it. ---------------------------------------- This Thread needs some Dev lovin but it will take a bump from anyone
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.08.09 00:39:00 - [23] I already posted this but I want it on the last page where it will actually be seen. There's a Dev response in the game development channel saying that it has been fixed at L5 on the test server and this fix will be going live soon. For those of you who think this skill is screwing shield tankers (aka. no damage leak means lower HP means lower regen means die sooner) or just want to see a different bonus or think that capital shield tankers shouldn't have a time sink capital armor tankers don't please post in that thread while the Devs are reading it. ---------------------------------------- This Thread needs some Dev lovin but it will take a bump from anyone

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